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keithc1
Yak Posting Veteran
88 Posts |
 Posted - 2004-07-01 : 22:42:39
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| If anyone cares to reply I was wondering how long you people have been working with SQL and how you got started with it. I have only been at it on my own for couple months now and am amazed at the learning curve, just trying to keep with it and not get to frustrated. I'm also learning some programming in QBasic and I've found it to be helpful with sql to a certain extent, also curious if programming is a requirement to becomeing a good dev in sql?Keithc MCSE MCSA |
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derrickleggett
Pointy Haired Yak DBA
4184 Posts |
Posted - 2004-07-01 : 22:59:45
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| I think it's very important, especially with the upcoming 2005 release. You should be very familiar with one of the .NET language and Transact-SQL. Anything else you learn is cake. The main things I would study to be a good SQL developer are:1. Transact-SQL.2. Normalization and Database Design.3. SQL Server Architecture. You will understand why SQL Server works better if you understand how it's built.4. Another programming language such as C#.I've been a DBA for about 10 years now. Before that I was in reporting using SQL, Access, Crystal Reports, and Oracle.I don't know that I would spend a lot of time using QBasic if I was you. I used it a lot back in the 80's. Now, I would focus on something like Visual Basic.NET if I just wanted to pick something up for fun.MeanOldDBAderrickleggett@hotmail.comWhen life gives you a lemon, fire the DBA. |
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Seventhnight
Master Smack Fu Yak Hacker
2878 Posts |
Posted - 2004-07-01 : 23:28:41
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| I am technically a developer, but as I learn faster than the rest of my coworkers I also do most of the db design and maintenance.In the past three years I have learned (had to and just curious) the following:HTML, ASP, SQL, Javascript.Working with SQL only the last two years, and I crave new things about it becuase it is so powerful. Thus I started hanging out here a month or so ago...Corey |
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Kristen
Test
22859 Posts |
Posted - 2004-07-02 : 01:48:54
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| I started in the late '70s. Back then we wrote our own database <Hehehehe!> It was ISAM stuff, so not very "database" in SQL terms.Some of our clients then wanted to connect their offices on both sides of the pond across their, what was then, pathetic networks. So our clients told us that we needed Oracle. And other clients told us they couldn't afford Oracle. So we converted our application to Oracle and Watcom SQL (which came free with hamburgers, or somesuch - and later was bought by PowerBuilder who then got bought by Sybase and Watcom became SQL Anywhere and then Adaptive SQL or somesuch) Anyways .... where was I?Our application was converted from ISAM, so we did it “ISAM Style” in SQL too. We basically allowed users to select a specific record to view/edit by entering the PK fields into our application. We did a SELECT * FROM MyTable WHERE MyPK = 'FOO' and displayed the data (And I do mean SELECT * !!).Then they pressed NEXT (real easy on ISAM) and we didSELECT * FROM MyTable WHERE (MyPkCol1 = 'FOO' AND MyPkCol2 > 'BAR') OR MyPkCol1 > 'FOO' ORDER BY MyPkCol1, MyPkCol2read the first record, displayed it, and then closed the query <Hehehehe>Oracle took about a minute to do this on a 50,000 row databaseThen a prospective client said to us "Hee, Oracle is great, and we use that a lot, but only were we have an Oracle DBA onsite, and we don't have Oracle DBAs on the sites that need your application, so we'd only be interested if your application runs on MS SQL"Well, about this time my office junior from several years previously had moved up in the world and was working for Microsoft; he had a Ferrari and lots of Joy in his life!, so we thought that anything Microsoft would be OK, so we said “No problem” ...Within a short while the We Only Install Oracle [Fortune-top-not-very-many] companies were being plagued by companies saying “Our application only works with MSSQL, if you want it you need to support that platform”, so they did. And we ditched our Oracle version (except for one company where it never worked very well and the business managers refused to change even though both us AND their IT folk were telling them they were daft [as in “this little company can’t be expected to support Oracle “well” just for you, go with MSSQL”).Just to be clear, no disrespect to Oracle, just that MSSQL was “right sized” for our application; we don’t do Airline Reservation Systems – yet.But we still did the crappy ISAM style thinking. But we had some new slinky Enquiry tools [i.e. proper Client/Server application tools] that did dynamic SQL to prep. queries in a way that gave the users the data they wanted. We were gobsmacked at how fast these things could find data. And we had stuff likeSELECT COUNT(*) FROM MyTable WHERE <humungous stuff with lots of “%”>and then we did little messages saying “No Way Hosay” if the answer was more than about 500 rows. But we thought Watcom SQL was cool ‘coz it had some optimising trick that when it saw the COUNT(*) it optimised ready for the SELECT * with the same WHERE clause that came along next …So then I threw in the towel and in 2000 started work with a variety of different people I knew who were riding the DotCom wave. The first one was a dating site; they wanted to do reciprocal matching (not just the “Here’s a list of everyone we’ve got” type). You say you are 6’ tall and 30 years old [and lots of other stuff] and are looking for someone a bit shorter and a bit younger, and then you get matched with someone just like that who’s looking for someone a bit taller and a bit older.About half of this was SProcs – which I’d only just discovered after about 5 years programming with SQL! – the other half was dynamic SQL from ASP pages. I mean, we needed to be able to ORDER BY the columns the user had chosen, and dodge around the tables a bit.We had a little 2CPU box, a full-blown copy of SQL – courtesy of my Office Junior at Microsoft, who had now discovered that he needed two Ferraris (how does he use both?) and again I was knocked sideways by the performance.We logged every page that was viewed, and every SProc logged the START and END. Each page probably ran around 5 SProcs – so that’s 11 log entries per page view. Some days we got 200 or 300 new registrations – that was an average visit time of around 30 minutes – not to mention the returning visitors.Now I was starting to do it properly. Subsequent applications had no dynamic SQL. (“No” is obviously a tough word in practice, but that’s pretty much where we are now).In the last couple of years (for you Internet Archaeologists doing Post Graduate research in the year 2050 I’m talking 2003-2004 here!) we have built an “engine” that allows us to build fully content managed database driven web sties.Everything is in the database (well, not the images, I took some advise from SQLTeam – we’ve just the got their names in the DB). All the little bits of HTML -for example, on a Product Display page there is a little (several in fact) piece of HTML that encapsulates how the Product is displayed – either in a <TD> or a <DIV> or however the site has been designed. Each and every product displayed retrieves that data along with the product details itself (I’m kinda oversimplifying ‘coz in practice there’s all sort of caching and “I know all about this job” type stuff) but the point is that the [techie] user can modify how their product page displays by changing the HTML-snippet stored in the DB.It’s a massively complicated DB structure (well, for my aging brain, anyway), runs probably 50 SProcs per page (all of them still logging their Entry and Exit <hehehe>). Our “Shopping Cart” clients are in the business of around 1,000 web orders per day peak time, and the servers are hardly breaking into a sweat.So we’ve learnt to do without Cursors, to Think Relational, to Optimise and to Design (usually not in that order, but sometimes!)But unlike you young whippersnappers who learnt how to do this right first time, and were given SQL to start out with, its taken me a lifetime.Now then, I wonder if I answered the question, or whether this is a completely inappropriate ramble down memory lane and Graz will want it deleted. Is the post graduate still scraping the bits back off the decayed magnetic coating?Kristen |
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Kristen
Test
22859 Posts |
Posted - 2004-07-02 : 01:49:30
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| Sorry Keithc1 I think I got abit carried away there! |
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RickD
Slow But Sure Yak Herding Master
3608 Posts |
Posted - 2004-07-02 : 05:19:04
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hahaha.. Nice one Kristen...  I've been in IT for about 10 years or so now... Started off doing Shell scripting and Informix SQL, moved onto Informix 4GL and Informix NewEra (What? I hear you ask, if so, you really don't want to know!!!) and then across to VB and Sybase before coming across SQL Server 6.5... Been doing that now for 5-6 years along with VB, VBA, ASP and a bit of JavaScript as well as a few other things here and there...God, I have managed to condense 10 years into a paragraph!!! |
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AndrewMurphy
Master Smack Fu Yak Hacker
2916 Posts |
Posted - 2004-07-02 : 06:40:29
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| 17years at this stuff....development, system support (optimisation, engineering, etc), development-dba and back to raw development...all for the same bank.Started with using Speed-II on Wang for 4 years...who knows/remembers either...then onwards to IEF from TI on IBM m/frame (+ DB2) for 10 years (which became CoolGen after a marketing makeover) and then to VB/SQL for the past 4 years. No internet stuff...there's enough backoffice stuff that needs doing to keep employed until retirement.Job Satisfaction/Excitement isn't in the use of new tools....it's more to do with the delivery of the end-product. |
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JasonGoff
Posting Yak Master
158 Posts |
Posted - 2004-07-02 : 07:02:50
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quote:
Originally posted by keithc1
If anyone cares to reply I was wondering how long you people have been working with SQL and how you got started with it. I have only been at it on my own for couple months now and am amazed at the learning curve, just trying to keep with it and not get to frustrated. I'm also learning some programming in QBasic and I've found it to be helpful with sql to a certain extent, also curious if programming is a requirement to becomeing a good dev in sql?Keithc MCSE MCSA
Started in IT 18 years ago as a trainee C programmer. All our 'database' stuff back then was ISAM-based. In the late 80s got involved with DbaseIII and Clipper, because one of our guys left. Moved on to a Financial Software House as a C programmer, and they had me working on a Foxpro system due to me xBase background. Went from there to working on a migration from Foxpro to SQL 6 in the mid 90s and have since done VB/SQL client-server developments, ASP, Java, some DBA work (although not my forte). These days working as Dev Manager for a UK-based asset management company, still doing SQL2000 and bits of VB (6 and .Net).Want to get good at SQL ? Understand how SQL Server works, learn T-SQL, learn about database design, normalisation. Other languages - something Microsoft-based, VB.Net or C# for example. Don't try to become expert in both at the same time though !! .Net framework is complicated enough on it's own !Above all, have fun! Software development can be very DULL sometimes. |
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derrickleggett
Pointy Haired Yak DBA
4184 Posts |
Posted - 2004-07-02 : 09:28:42
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| WOW....You guys are old. :)MeanOldDBAderrickleggett@hotmail.comWhen life gives you a lemon, fire the DBA. |
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AndrewMurphy
Master Smack Fu Yak Hacker
2916 Posts |
Posted - 2004-07-02 : 09:38:06
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| "WOW....You guys are old. :)"....That's not the way I like to look at it.....!!!! |
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Wanderer
Master Smack Fu Yak Hacker
1168 Posts |
Posted - 2004-07-02 : 11:02:31
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| Jeez ... looks like I'm a "youngster" - started on Mainframe DB2 straight out of varisty, 10 years ago. Did a little mainframe assembler programming, before escaping to the DBA team. Wandered to Sybase/Unix for about 3 months, then on to SQL server 3 years ago. I am a bit "anomalous" here - apart from the very short stint doing assembler programming (was about 3 months), I've never been a professional programmer, but a DBA.Having seen the latest Yukon presentation, I agree with derrick - getting programming skills will be necessary - there is much you can do with T-SQL, but I think I need to add the C# and XML bowstrings to my armoury...CiaO*##* *##* *##* *##* Chaos, Disorder and Panic ... my work is done here! |
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keithc1
Yak Posting Veteran
88 Posts |
Posted - 2004-07-02 : 11:44:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Kristen
Sorry Keithc1 I think I got abit carried away there!
No way man!!! Nothing to be sorry about I love learning about the history behind it all from an individual standpoint and not through some book. I have a ton of respect for those who endeavour to persevere and I can see from this thread there are a lot of you. I'm only 2 months in with sql and have been primarily focused on the Networking side of IT. I was an admin for 3yrs and downsizing unplugged the need for me :) but I always found that even as much as I enjoy the Networking side and like to think well versed in it, the first time I exp SQL I was drawn to it but never took the time to start learning it until couple months back. I've made some pretty good strides in that time and hope I can get an entry level position somewhere (theres not alot here in Buffalo, NY, people are leaving here like mad) I know it is alot diff out there in prod but I have 3 servers here 2 sql box's one firewalled and am using that setup to learn (Have to start somewhere). I thinking about doing the cert MCDBA but am not quite sure if I should spend the money on it, I've see alot of MCSE's who couldn't configure tcp/ip etc but I don't know how bad a rap MCDBA has got from the dumpers as well. Also I hate paying MS to take there tests, i've paid more to MS to support there products than actually made in supporting there products lol Anyways i'm ramblin on to but if MCDBA gets me a better shot at entry level somewhere I'll do it. Thanks for the great responses hereKeithc MCSE MCSA |
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Kristen
Test
22859 Posts |
Posted - 2004-07-02 : 13:12:49
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quote:
Originally posted by RickD
God, I have managed to condense 10 years into a paragraph!!!
That's a trick I really ought to learn. It took me 10 years to type my reply ...Kristen |
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Kristen
Test
22859 Posts |
Posted - 2004-07-02 : 13:21:08
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quote:
Originally posted by derrickleggett
WOW....You guys are old.
You mean you're trying to make me feel old? Shucks!Kristen |
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Kristen
Test
22859 Posts |
Posted - 2004-07-02 : 13:21:18
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| > MCDBAI buy experience over qualifications every time - but in a dead-heat the qualifications would count. But that's probably because I haven't got any qualifications. I bunked off the nice expensive boarding school my Daddy sent me to at 16, went to the local college for 17~18, and got somewhat side tracked by the fact that they had girls there ... and Wendy who ran the computer room. So I got 98% in my computer studies exam and just scrapped through the rest. Decided to skip university so I went to Japan for a couple of years, then messed around with this and that, and around 23 a friend of my parents asked me if I knew anything about computers.So I helped him for a bit, discovered that computers had shrunk from a huge room to a small box (alas, they no longer came complete with a "Wendy"), and a few chance meetings and a bit of luck (or perhaps "Luck is what you make") and I'm where I am today. As it turns out that's about 23 years ago, so I've been doing this for half my life.Kristen |
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RickD
Slow But Sure Yak Herding Master
3608 Posts |
Posted - 2004-07-05 : 07:04:56
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quote:
Originally posted by derrickleggett
WOW....You guys are old. :)MeanOldDBAderrickleggett@hotmail.comWhen life gives you a lemon, fire the DBA.
Not all of us...  |
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RickD
Slow But Sure Yak Herding Master
3608 Posts |
Posted - 2004-07-05 : 07:05:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Kristen
quote:
Originally posted by RickD
God, I have managed to condense 10 years into a paragraph!!!
That's a trick I really ought to learn. It took me 10 years to type my reply ...Kristen
Typing classes may be a good idea... |
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ditch
Master Smack Fu Yak Hacker
1466 Posts |
Posted - 2004-07-05 : 07:47:40
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quote:
Originally posted by RickD
quote:
Originally posted by derrickleggett
WOW....You guys are old. :)MeanOldDBAderrickleggett@hotmail.comWhen life gives you a lemon, fire the DBA.
Not all of us...
That's rich coming from an "Aged" Yak WarriorDuane. |
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RickD
Slow But Sure Yak Herding Master
3608 Posts |
Posted - 2004-07-05 : 08:13:02
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quote:
Originally posted by ditchThat's rich coming from an "Aged" Yak WarriorDuane.
I still have just over a year until I hit 30... |
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ditch
Master Smack Fu Yak Hacker
1466 Posts |
Posted - 2004-07-05 : 08:34:01
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You are only as young as The woman you feel. Duane. |
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RickD
Slow But Sure Yak Herding Master
3608 Posts |
Posted - 2004-07-05 : 10:21:37
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quote:
Originally posted by ditch
You are only as young as The woman you feel.Duane.
But she's 9 years older than me... |
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Just curious here