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nlocklin
Yak Posting Veteran
69 Posts |
 Posted - 2001-12-17 : 16:00:21
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| I'm putting together a book purchase list for my co-workers, both some more advanced books for the programmers, and also some very basic books for the statisticians who will be learning SQL (against my better judgement).I've had no trouble finding really good advanced books (mainly the same ones in the SQLTeam Bookstore), but I'm having a hard time finding good beginners books. Here's the list that I've found so far... can anyone recommend a good beginners book?SQL Queries for Mere Mortals: A Hands-On Guide to Data Manipulation in SQL by Michael J. Hernandez, John L. Viescashttp://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201433362/ref=ase_sqlteamcom-20/103-1149963-9752611The Practical SQL Handbook by Judith S. Bowmanhttp://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201447878/ref=ase_sqlteamcom-20/103-1149963-9752611Sams Teach Yourself Transact-SQL in 21 Days (2nd Edition) by Lowell Mauerhttp://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0672319675/ref=ase_sqlteamcom-20/103-1149963-9752611SQL for Dummies by Allen G. Taylorhttp://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0764507370/ref=ase_sqlteamcom-20/103-1149963-9752611Which of these books above does everyone think would be best for beginners to learn SQL and Transact-SQL? Am I missing a good book?--"It's not that I'm lazy, it's that I just don't care." |
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Merkin
Funky Drop Bear Fearing SQL Dude!
4970 Posts |
Posted - 2001-12-17 : 17:15:28
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HiOK, second attempt....I just answered this, but our ISP crapped out just as I hit POST.  OK, Here goes.....We have a copy of the Sams one around here that we gave to someone to learn from. We had to go back and re-teach them a bunch of stuff as it wasn't SQL Server focussed and it didn't use INNER JOIN syntax etcI would go back and take another look at Rob Vieira's Professional SQL Server Programming (7 or 2000).Although it does end up in advanced stuff, the first few chapters are good beginner chapters. Basic SQL stuff is there, well explained, and it also goes into some SQL Server basics, introduction to the tools etc as well as a good intro to the SQL Server data types.I would totally recommend it, and you can buy it through here and make Graz rich beyond his wildest dreams  Hope that helpsDamian |
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smccreadie
Aged Yak Warrior
505 Posts |
Posted - 2001-12-17 : 17:17:08
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| Here's the one I cut my teeth on http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1861002319/qid=1008627173/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_66_2/107-0439981-0332530Also available in a SQL2000 version. |
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graz
Chief SQLTeam Crack Dealer
4149 Posts |
Posted - 2001-12-17 : 17:18:22
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I would totally recommend it, and you can buy it through here and make Graz rich beyond his wildest dreams
You know sooooo little about my wildest dreams!===============================================Creating tomorrow's legacy systems today.One crisis at a time. |
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nlocklin
Yak Posting Veteran
69 Posts |
Posted - 2001-12-17 : 23:32:46
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| Thanks for the tip about the Sams book. I'd heard something similar from someone else, so that rules it out for me.I am planning on ordering Professional SQL Server 2000 Programming, as well as The Guru's Guide to Transact-SQL, Advanced Transact-SQL for SQL Server 2000, and Professional SQL Server 2000 DTS. Those are some of the books we'll be getting for the programmers.And, of course, I sent the person in charge of purchasing the link to Amazon.com with the SQLTeam.com reference (even changed the URL for the books that aren't in the SQLTeam Bookstore). :-)Thanks again!--"I'm always doing that. I'm always messing up some mundane detail." |
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Nazim
A custom title
1408 Posts |
Posted - 2001-12-18 : 00:06:40
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| You can go for Sql for Dummies too, there are lot of good beginners stuff in Dummies Series.-------------------------"Success is when Preparedness meets Opportunity" |
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byrmol
Shed Building SQL Farmer
1591 Posts |
Posted - 2001-12-18 : 00:48:23
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| I am pretty disappointed there is not one book relating to database theory...You should at least have an understanding of what a relational database is and how it works.With out doubt the book to buy is one by Chris Date.."AN INTRODUCTION TO DATABASE SYSTEMS" 7th Edand for your "Advanced" programmers...(You better have aspirin:))"FOUNDATION FOR FUTURE DATABASE SYSTEMS: THE THIRD MANIFESTO"DavidM"Why are you crying?""Because I love a Microsoft product" |
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Merkin
Funky Drop Bear Fearing SQL Dude!
4970 Posts |
Posted - 2001-12-18 : 01:24:30
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| Honestly David, the third manifesto will do nothing for anyone doing SQL. It does nothing but bag SQL, talk about how D will be nothing like SQL, and how great D is gonna be when it happens.But no one has seen any evidence of it ever happening, and they will probably change their mind anyway. They have done that twice already.I really don't think it has much relevance.Also, Date's introduction to database systems is not going to do much for "the statisticians who will be learning SQL " so they can pull a few reports out.Damian |
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Nazim
A custom title
1408 Posts |
Posted - 2001-12-18 : 01:54:25
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David theres a pretty good book on database design by Abraham Korth, something like "Introduction to database design" i dont remember the xact name  .but its a great book, from a beginner to a Advance user can benefit from it-------------------------"Success is when Preparedness meets Opportunity"Edited by - Nazim on 12/18/2001 01:56:21 |
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byrmol
Shed Building SQL Farmer
1591 Posts |
Posted - 2001-12-18 : 02:46:18
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Merkin,I don't give a rat’s arse if it bags SQL or makes love to it! I make my living off SQL but I hope it is not the best commercial data language the world could ever produce...The point is there is not enough theory in a field that is based solely on scientific and mathematical principles. Relevance!? What is every database vendor on the planet trying to achieve at the moment? OO type features in a relational database. That is the whole point of the "Third Manifesto". As for the statisticians, he sure would be interested in the theorems that derive his "reports". He better know what to do with NULLS in aggregations....And what fun would a database forum be without a theory nazi....  Nazim, I know there are a lot database design books, but if you look up the list in this thread there are none.........that was my point!I am babbling...Merkin was right... I need a holiday..badly....DavidM"Why are you crying?""Because I love a Microsoft product"Edited by - byrmol on 12/18/2001 02:59:20 |
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hande
Starting Member
8 Posts |
Posted - 2001-12-18 : 07:22:39
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| Well I could suggest one book, but you need to be more than novice.Once I saw an article from that book, I surprised: What was so familiar with that case (Arska)? well little thinking and lamp of idea: It was same kind of inside knowledge from ones 'schoolbook'. Sounds very clear!of ciourse then I made it a proc/func and with compiled dll it was faster than ... fun. |
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PiecesOfEight
Posting Yak Master
200 Posts |
Posted - 2001-12-18 : 16:47:13
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| I do not have my magic decoder ring. Anyone?? |
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Tim
Starting Member
392 Posts |
Posted - 2001-12-18 : 18:39:29
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| statisticians learning SQL:if they are only intending to learn the basics, (join, where, group by) then why do it?There are a gazillion good products (like crystal reports) that make generateing a SQL statement quite easy. The syntax is hidden by the GUI.You should do that and forget the book (sorry graz I just screwed your royalties ) |
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robvolk
Most Valuable Yak
15732 Posts |
Posted - 2001-12-18 : 20:26:17
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If you don't want to foot the bill for C. Date's Intro book (US $75 is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much), I found this:http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/~gurari/course/cis670/cis6702.html#tocIt should satisfy both the hard-core Date-worshipping math major, in that it uses bizarre academic terms to complicate and obscure simple SQL concepts, while also containing diagrams and plain-English descriptions of simple SQL concepts (including SQL code! how about that Chris, Hugh?) for the hard-working SQL programmer whose boss doesn't appreciate the finer points of quantum relational theory, but wants that f---ing report NOW!It also includes definitions of the Normal Forms (though not as well as this link), entity-relationship diagrams, a bunch of good stuff. It's a little technical, so if you want the REAL basics, this site might help too:http://www.w3schools.com/sql/default.aspAnd while I don't want to start (another) argument/war/heated discussion:quote:
The point is there is not enough theory in a field that is based solely on scientific and mathematical principles.
I disagree. Professional database programmers do not create theoretical databases for theoretical users. They need a real product to create real databases with real data queried by real users looking for real information.There's nothing wrong with theory, but the world's greatest theory doesn't get any work done, while even the worst practical application CAN accomplish something even if it's theoretically FUBAR. Anyone who's ever used PFS:Professional File or DataPerfect can vouch for that I should also mention, besides The Guru's Guide to Transact-SQL  that Inside SQL Server is also a good addition to a SQL library. It covers a fair amount of basic intro stuff and lots of inside info on SQL Server, and lots of good stuff on hardware choices, admin functions, etc.; soup-to-nuts database knowledge!Edited by - robvolk on 12/18/2001 20:29:48 |
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byrmol
Shed Building SQL Farmer
1591 Posts |
Posted - 2001-12-18 : 20:56:07
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| Why do people jump up and down so much when asked to learn a bit of theory. You don't have to be a PhD or even a maths geek, just the core workings would suffice..Set theory and predicate logic.. it is not really difficult to get a grasp of these but people have this perception that it is rocket science.....If we turn it around and take another profession...brick layer...Do you tell the apprentice.."Don't worry about learning why the building has to be level""Don't worry about the types of sand used""Don't worry about the setting time of concrete, just do it quickly!"I for one would not let that apprentice build a dog house!DavidM"Why are you crying?""Because I love a Microsoft product" |
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AjarnMark
SQL Slashing Gunting Master
3246 Posts |
Posted - 2001-12-18 : 23:28:44
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| David,Whether a brick-layer or database guy, I personally am much more interested in the theory behind the actual practice and perhaps some "ideal" theory mixed in. If you want to tell me why a best practice is really best, I'm interested. If you want to start talking about prescriptions, proscriptions, and manifestos, I've got work to do. And I have found that the people who are best at their jobs have some sort of gut-level understanding of the theory, but many of them could not carry on a conversation at the higher academic levels. As a former valedictorian, I can tell you there is a lot of truth in the saying that "A-students teach and B-students wind up working for C-students." If you doubt that, check the formal education level of the world's Billionaires.-------------------It's a SQL thing... |
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byrmol
Shed Building SQL Farmer
1591 Posts |
Posted - 2001-12-18 : 23:54:28
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And I have found that the people who are best at their jobs have some sort of gut-level understanding of the theory.
That is the level I am talking about... No more (well if you want to), but definately no less....DavidM"Why are you crying?""Because I love a Microsoft product" |
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Merkin
Funky Drop Bear Fearing SQL Dude!
4970 Posts |
Posted - 2001-12-19 : 00:04:41
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| OK, but you don't need to read the third manifesto (which is anti sql) to be at that level.Damian |
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AjarnMark
SQL Slashing Gunting Master
3246 Posts |
Posted - 2001-12-19 : 00:29:56
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Well personally, I've never taken classes in or studied database design, set theory, or advanced mathematics. I have learned "on the job" and in application. In the beginning I worked with people who understood database stuff better than I did, and who had the real world experience, and so I learned what worked well, what didn't work well, etc.Then, as needed I sought out resources like SQLTeam and The Guru's Guide to Transact-SQL to help me with specific issues and samples. I'm sure some people would insist that I've missed out on "expanding my mind" but I was more interested in expanding my pocketbook, which I have done quite successfully.  I know there is a lot I don't know. I know my expertise in SQL does not cross all issues (for example, I've never done replication), and someday I may need to call on the expertise of people who know the theory inside and out, so I'm glad that they exist. But in every business I've been in, the management was interested in results, and THAT I deliver. And so, back to the original post, I would guess that results is what nlocklin's company is looking for. I like Tim's idea...-------------------It's a SQL thing... |
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byrmol
Shed Building SQL Farmer
1591 Posts |
Posted - 2001-12-19 : 01:53:36
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| Ajarn, besides the no-life hardcore DBA, most of us do what it takes to get the job done and more importantly to increase our bank balances. But I mention the manifesto because it will one day, wether we like it or not, become the basis for future systems. How do I know this? Because the theory is sound and AFAIK nobody else has laid out a framework like it. Back in the old days, they said relational DBMS were no good, to slow etc... And yet here they are... Personally I want to be ready when this goes down so I can really fill the bank Damian, I agree with you that it is not for a beginner, hell I can't read more than 10 pages of the Inheritance Model chapter without reaching for a beer and/or aspirin (That's not saying much though). A few hours reading any of the available books/websites will give you at least a insight into how they work...then again different strokes for different folks.....as we keep seeing "just" really is enough..DavidM"Why are you crying?""Because I love a Microsoft product" |
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PiecesOfEight
Posting Yak Master
200 Posts |
Posted - 2001-12-19 : 02:08:39
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| Byrmol,Your posts have a vaguely prophetic-apocalyptic tone to them. Do you see Date as the Second Coming? Maybe Fabian Pascal will end up as a modern day Judas when it's all said and done. Just kidding, this is all very interesting. This is coming from someone who is embarking on a self study of set theory, so I'm certainly not anti-theory. But I think that for the situation described in the original post, more practical books make more sense. There's no harm in suggesting further reading though.CheersMichael |
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Good beginners books?