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graz
Chief SQLTeam Crack Dealer
4149 Posts |
 Posted - 2001-12-09 : 22:43:34
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| This thread goes with this poll (http://www.sqlteam.com/PollResults.asp?PollID=132). We've had some interesting discussion on this in the past. I thought I'd see what the group thought.===============================================Creating tomorrow's legacy systems today.One crisis at a time. |
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Merkin
Funky Drop Bear Fearing SQL Dude!
4970 Posts |
Posted - 2001-12-09 : 22:50:28
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Everybody get their flame proof vests on and stand back  Damian |
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Andraax
Aged Yak Warrior
790 Posts |
Posted - 2001-12-10 : 02:04:02
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| Yeah this topic is a bit hot huh... |
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nr
SQLTeam MVY
12543 Posts |
Posted - 2001-12-10 : 08:13:18
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| May take the exams during my upcomming holiday - after which may decide that companies should stay away from unqualified cowboys.As opposed to qualified cowboys.==========================================Cursors are useful if you don't know sql.Beer is not cold and it isn't fizzy. |
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AjarnMark
SQL Slashing Gunting Master
3246 Posts |
Posted - 2001-12-10 : 14:35:52
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quote:
Everybody get their flame proof vests on and stand back
Hey, with enough  you don't worry about flames.Is that Certified Yak Hacker or just certifiable (a.k.a. loony)?-------------------It's a SQL thing... |
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dvdvon
Starting Member
5 Posts |
Posted - 2001-12-10 : 15:13:07
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| I've known one MCDBA. He must have bought the certification from someone. I actually called MS to make sure it was valid - he knew that little! I've worked in SQL for about 5 years now without it - I think my time would be better spent learning some different technology - XML for instance. I'm open to expert suggestions however.David Vaughan |
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JustinBigelow
SQL Gigolo
1157 Posts |
Posted - 2001-12-10 : 16:17:21
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Well for better or for worse I'm one test away from getting my MCDBA. I know there are alot of hacks out there with a store bought cert of one form or another; he who's name shall not be uttered (you old timers know who I'm talking about) was himself banished from these forums for the lunacy of his opinions all the while backing it up with his MCDBA. Personally, I think the Data Warehousing test should mandatory instead of optional, the sheer boredom of the subject would weed out 90% who werent serious about it.Justin(gotcha no cert respecters  ) |
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byrmol
Shed Building SQL Farmer
1591 Posts |
Posted - 2001-12-10 : 16:54:08
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| IMHO any certificate/course that does not teach fundamental database principles is worth less than toilet paper.DavidMIt gets windy at a thousand feet...."Tutorial D" |
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nlocklin
Yak Posting Veteran
69 Posts |
Posted - 2001-12-10 : 21:41:33
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| Well, I'm thinking about it/planning to get it, especially since my place of employment is paying for all of the classes. I figure free classes are never bad.So far I've taken the SQL Server 2000 Database Programming/Design course, and I was unimpressed. I only learned a few things here and there, and actually had to correct the instructor once or twice (even caught a mistake in the text). But I'm not sure that I would pass the exam if I took it. The exam (at least the SQL Server 7 version of the Transcender test) seems a lot more difficult than the course material. We also sent two of our programmers, which was a mistake. I think the T-SQL course might have been a lot more useful. I agree with byrmol - there needs to be more emphasis on fundamental database principles.Anyway, I think that people shouldn't be hired on the basis of certification alone - that's pretty silly. It is a factor to consider though. Given two relatively similar candidates, I'd have to go with the one with certification over the one without.--"It's not that I'm lazy, it's that I just don't care." |
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fisherman_jake
Slave to the Almighty Yak
159 Posts |
Posted - 2001-12-10 : 22:41:30
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quote:
...Given two relatively similar candidates, I'd have to go with the one with certification over the one without.
That is why most of the big companies now have mandatory written test to show who's got the smarts, regardless of certificate or not.. I would know, I got this job by comming out on top of the list of people who took the test. (Says alot for the batch.. hehehe) Even then it still depends on personality and social skills. But on a technical merit I would go for the person who can pass a written test and give several solutions, and explain why.. I am still after the drinking smiley.. I know the toasting one, and the beer, but not the drinking one...   ..==================================================World War III is imminent, you know what that means... No Bag limits!!!Master Fisherman |
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Merkin
Funky Drop Bear Fearing SQL Dude!
4970 Posts |
Posted - 2001-12-10 : 23:14:20
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Hmmm, I have put forward my thoughts on this a few times before. Basically, it can't hurt to do it, but any job where certification was the primary criteria you probably wouldn't want anyway. It is just a good way to get your resume through the fluffy HR peoples.I think problem solving and learning skills come right at the top of the list, and not too far behind is personality. You might be the best guy around, but if you are impossible to work with you're not going too far, at least now.Hmmm, let's see, if I wanted an emoticon to "chug" a beer, what would I type it ?????? Damian |
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mfemenel
Professor Frink
1421 Posts |
Posted - 2001-12-11 : 08:05:59
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Figures the first post I come to on my "return to SQL team" is this one! Anyway, IMHO, I look at the certification as a resume builder. Put yourself in the HR persons shoes. They,in general, know nothing about TSQL, so listing your TSQL accompishments or skills does very little to satisfy their selecting your resume, other than matching a list of things to look for that an IT manager gave them. Putting down an MCDBA however, probably gets their attention because I think in their minds it means, this guys studied his stuff and must know what he's talking about...keep in mind we're talking about HR however. So in that respect, I think it would be helpful to "get your foot in the door", especially if you're a bit low on the experience end of things. However, when it comes to an IT manager, who you're almost certain to have to pass by to get the job, it's a different story. With any luck, the IT manager is going to see the MCDBA and hopefully be a bit skeptical about what you know. Any IT manager who plans on being successful should test all candidates for their knowledge to filter out the deadbeats vs the people who know their stuff. So I guess in conclusion, the MCDBA might help you be a little more marketable, but in the end, you should ultimately depend on your hands on experience to speak for you.Oh, and Jake, all you have to do is this  hee hee.Mike "A program is a device used to convert data into error messages."Edited by - mfemenel on 12/11/2001 08:07:16 |
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AjarnMark
SQL Slashing Gunting Master
3246 Posts |
Posted - 2001-12-11 : 13:05:39
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I agree with Merkin and Mike regarding a good "foot-in-the-door" feature. But most HR people also recognize "10 years experience in this topic" as a good reference too.If my company were paying for the classes and tests, I'd probably take them too. In regard to Merkin's comment here:quote:
I think problem solving and learning skills come right at the top of the list, and not too far behind is personality. You might be the best guy around, but if you are impossible to work with you're not going too far, at least now.
I can give you some stats. About five years ago I took a break from development and did some teaching. One of the things that I taught the students was that only 10% of people fired were let go because of "hard skills" (unable to do the job). 90% of the people were let go because of "soft skills" (personality, accountability, etc.). And it's easier for a company to get you training on hard-skills that you lack than it is to get you to learn soft-skills. That's why you sometimes see a guy who doesn't know what they're doing, but knows how to interview well beat out the more competent worker.-------------------It's a SQL thing... |
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mfemenel
Professor Frink
1421 Posts |
Posted - 2001-12-11 : 13:39:21
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| That's a good point Mark. I guess I'd put it this way. The more experience you have, the less useful the MCDBA is to you.Mike "A program is a device used to convert data into error messages."Edited by - mfemenel on 12/11/2001 13:41:58 |
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Merkin
Funky Drop Bear Fearing SQL Dude!
4970 Posts |
Posted - 2001-12-11 : 17:03:42
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| That's cohort talk Damian |
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mfemenel
Professor Frink
1421 Posts |
Posted - 2001-12-12 : 08:08:34
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You're right Merkin, I'm just in "danile"  Mike "A program is a device used to convert data into error messages." |
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jcorbin121
Starting Member
5 Posts |
Posted - 2001-12-12 : 15:48:54
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| I am an MCSE, MCDBA, MCT. People can be good MCDBA's just as easy as bad one's. I agree that there are far too many MCDBA's that 'think' they understand databases but really dont. More emphasis is needed on the fundamentals, it's hardly addressed in the MOC's. This is a building block that will 'gotcha' later in life as a DBA that you cant afford to be ignorant of. I do think that Microsoft has taken a good step requiring MCT's to stay abreast of CURRENT technology by up'ing the annual coursework and testing requirements. Hope that they take that step into the MCSE/MCDBA programs to require annual 'check-rides' to keep the cert worth something.JohnJohn |
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Doug G
Constraint Violating Yak Guru
331 Posts |
Posted - 2001-12-12 : 19:24:54
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| I'm pretty much a disinterested observer, I only use SQL Server peripherially in small projects. Much of the certification is aimed at large enterprise sites and doesn't have a lot of relevance to my work.But ...I am in favor of certifications. In many cases, not all, it is a good indication that a person has some drive and initiative. Anyone who gets the certification can't help but learn a decent amount by going through the courses.There will always be the periodic "jerk" with a certification. Those types are memorable, and become fodder for many stories, but I believe they are a pretty small part of the overall base of MS certified workers. Perhaps the MCDBA is a special niche, but nearly all of the certified folks I run across are professional and doing well. I think 99% of certified workers are proud of their effort, proud of their title, and generally more competent than non-certified people.$00000.02======Doug G====== |
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kmarshba
Starting Member
24 Posts |
Posted - 2001-12-13 : 13:51:26
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| I agree with Doug...I would expand MCDBAs to include MCSDs. I've met as many clueless people with so-called experience as clueless certs.I think the main point is that if you have to make the choice between cert or experience it should be based on validating both of them. Meaning...sit them down at identical machines and give them 1 hour to design/program something from a spec sheet...just like the programming contests they have for various languages. Then test/analyze the performance of those apps.In the event you are unable to provide such an environment (most likey scenario) validate the qualifications independantly. In other words, check whether the cert took instructor led classes, what material did the applicant study, how did the applicant prepare for the exams...and for crying out loud...ask for a copy of their test scores! I had a VB instructor that had every M$ cert but was a complete Gomer when it came time to applying the knowledge, he took the SQL tests something like 5 times each because the "school" paid for it...the other instructors knew he was a joke...Any way, the applicants with experience need to have that experience validated as well...so what if they can spout off M$ catch phrases and proper terminology along the way...and so what if they built an app, how do you know they learned good programming skills? Actually, I haven't thought about this one...any ideas on how to (w/o physical testing) you would verify that experience?BTW - I'm 1 test from an MCSD and 3 from an MCDBA...plan on finishing soon...been to busy gaining experience and in the meantime. |
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purisqlserver
Yak Posting Veteran
73 Posts |
Posted - 2002-01-07 : 00:35:39
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| I am planning to take up MCDBA course, can any one out there, tell the links to look out for dummy questions.thnx |
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Merkin
Funky Drop Bear Fearing SQL Dude!
4970 Posts |
Posted - 2002-01-07 : 00:54:51
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| HiYou can buy sample tests from www.transcender.com Also have a look at www.cramsession.com for info on the exams.If you mean braindumps, no one here will post links to them as they are cheating.Damian |
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Poll: Are you an MCDBA?