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robvolk
Most Valuable Yak
15732 Posts |
 Posted - 2006-11-08 : 08:31:40
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I've forgotten how relentless this could be, 5 out of 6 consecutive posts on Ask SQL Team:http://www.sqlteam.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=74623http://www.sqlteam.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=74618http://www.sqlteam.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=74621http://www.sqlteam.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=74624I'm not convinced about this one, but it's a candidate. Kinda interesting too:http://www.sqlteam.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=74619I know it's annoying to have people post the most basic questions, most obvious test or homework questions, but I'm also getting tired of dumping them into the regular mix. I'm also a little tired of assuming they're all freeloaders and lazy/stupid, because as quite a few SQLTeamers rightly point out, we were all beginners once. (I'm embarrassed that I don't say this often myself)  I know we have a "New to SQL Server" forum but I'd like to keep that one for professionals actually working in the industry. I'm throwing out a suggestion for a "Homework" forum and want to see what the general mood is about that. Consider it SQL Team's own little election.  I'm in the middle about it myself, because I know it will be a dumping ground. At least it's a single place for the real crap to go.I also want to get a feel for the standards we should have, for instance, absolutely NO CERTIFICATION QUESTIONS. Any others?The final decision is up to graz, of course, at least if he's passionately for or against it. So here's your chance to voice your opinion on Proposition #123892342387523423490857:Should SQL Team add a forum for Homework questions?Thanks. |
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spirit1
Cybernetic Yak Master
11752 Posts |
Posted - 2006-11-08 : 08:45:45
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yes.Go with the flow & have fun! Else fight the flow  blog thingie: http://weblogs.sqlteam.com/mladenp |
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SwePeso
Patron Saint of Lost Yaks
30421 Posts |
Posted - 2006-11-08 : 08:51:35
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| Yes. I second that!I have noticed the posters are like a pack of wolves.So many similar question within minutes...Peter LarssonHelsingborg, Sweden |
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khtan
In (Som, Ni, Yak)
17689 Posts |
Posted - 2006-11-08 : 09:12:33
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"So many similar question within minutes..."That's the act of the super twit remember ?  The poster posts the question over the AskSQLTeam page. I think once a day (normally around this hour. Hint : for those who wants to boost their post count say by your computer during this hour ) our super twit will transfer to the appropriate forums.On the homework forums, YES.
KH |
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SwePeso
Patron Saint of Lost Yaks
30421 Posts |
Posted - 2006-11-08 : 09:20:35
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| Oh, you mean the transferred messages who has AskSQLTeam as author? Them too.But I was referring to the orignal questions.Peter LarssonHelsingborg, Sweden |
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Lumbago
Norsk Yak Master
3271 Posts |
Posted - 2006-11-08 : 09:31:52
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| Eye to homework forum! And is it just me or do AskSQLTeam posters "never" reply to their own threads? Maybe I shouldn't say this but I'm often reluctant to answering AskSQLTeam posters with a lengthy reply because I have an impression that it never gets read anyway. It might be a wrong assumption but it just feels like it. If I remember correctly the AskSQLTeam feature was created to get ideas for articles on the site and not some tool for newbies doing homework. I would actually consider going to the length of removing the feature alltogether but fortunately that's not my decision...I just feel that if you don't bother to even register you're not that interested in getting any real help either --Lumbago"Real programmers don't document, if it was hard to write it should be hard to understand" |
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spirit1
Cybernetic Yak Master
11752 Posts |
Posted - 2006-11-08 : 09:40:55
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| likewise.i view AskSQLTeam questions as a simple but useless way of post count increasing.i used to answer them but no more... ok... maybe if it's a very interesting one Go with the flow & have fun! Else fight the flow blog thingie: http://weblogs.sqlteam.com/mladenp |
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SwePeso
Patron Saint of Lost Yaks
30421 Posts |
Posted - 2006-11-08 : 09:49:30
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| Maybe the OP never answers them because he has gotten a reply from somewhere else?Many of the posters here, posts the same question "en masse", ie on several other forums.And never get back with a solution or recognition if he/she get a reply somewhere else.56.27% of the members at SQLTeam has posted 1 or no question/answer.Maybe a status message line under title for inactive users (no login/post for x days) would be in order?Peter LarssonHelsingborg, Sweden |
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Kristen
Test
22859 Posts |
Posted - 2006-11-08 : 10:29:35
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| Not sure about the "Homework" forum title - bit unkind to people who are genuine, but get mistaken. But something "pithy" that implies free-loader would do me.I like the idea that people can "trial run" SQL Team by using ASKSQLTeam - its quite a chore to register for a single question.However, I think it would be reasonable to get the user to Register for the benefit. No easy way to do that, of course, but providing answers along the approach of "We can answer your question if you provide us with A, B and C" will need the user to register to continue the thread.I presume you have to put in an EMail address to place an AskSQLTem question - and they get an Email when its answered? With a link to the forum/thread that the AskSQLTeam question got posted as? Maybe that can have a "register cost" associated with reading?"You question has been answered, you need to register to read the answer, after registering you will be taken directly to the response provided" - or "You will be emailed a link to the answer"Or maybe the "Homework" forum could be Registered Members only - so they have to register to read the answer?Or the "Homework" forum costs $1 to join or is free to anyone with more than X posts - so regulars can answer if they choose and money is raised for the annual SQL Team piss-up (and you'll be able to hire a private jet to fly me over to The Big Apple for it (or for all of you to fly here if you prefer!!!)Someone who is registered can at least say "Thanks" or "I got it 99% but what about X?" - whereas someone who did NOT have to register has not got much incentive to do either of those things. And maybe the act of registering will cause the user to ask more questions under their own name.Another thought: Assuming you get the AskSQLTeam questions out of the DB, and their Email address is available to you, maybe you could put a strap-line on the bottom with links to "other questions recently asked by this poster" so folk answering can check the content of previous posts - 4 homework questions are much easier to positively assess with high accuracy than just a single lone one!I'm rabbiting again ... |
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snSQL
Master Smack Fu Yak Hacker
1837 Posts |
Posted - 2006-11-08 : 11:09:21
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| All this assumes that people would actually post questions to a Homework forum - not likely, especially if it had all Kristen's requirements.How about just having an Ask SQL Team forum where all the anonymosu posts go. That way serious posters will give it lower priority and newbs will be more inclined to register. |
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DonAtWork
Master Smack Fu Yak Hacker
2167 Posts |
Posted - 2006-11-08 : 12:12:12
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| Yes on prop #123892342387523423490857[Signature]For fast help, follow this link:http://weblogs.sqlteam.com/brettk/archive/2005/05/25.aspxLearn SQLhttp://www.sql-tutorial.net/ http://www.firstsql.com/tutor.htm http://www.w3schools.com/sql/default.asp |
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TG
Master Smack Fu Yak Hacker
6065 Posts |
Posted - 2006-11-08 : 12:51:56
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| No to prop #123892342387523423490857...I never did my own homework, I certainaly don't want to do someone else's.<rant>Effin freeloaders! I don't think it's really helping them in the long run anyway.</rant>Be One with the OptimizerTG |
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Kristen
Test
22859 Posts |
Posted - 2006-11-08 : 13:10:12
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| "How about just having an Ask SQL Team forum where all the anonymosu posts go"Then the MODs wouldn't have to manually attribute them to an appropriate forum, and presumably they could be auto-posted.I still vote for reading such posts to require registration (so having posted anonymously they have to register to read it, or pay $1 or somesuch)Kristen |
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snSQL
Master Smack Fu Yak Hacker
1837 Posts |
Posted - 2006-11-08 : 13:23:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Kristen
"How about just having an Ask SQL Team forum where all the anonymosu posts go"Then the MODs wouldn't have to manually attribute them to an appropriate forum, and presumably they could be auto-posted.I still vote for reading such posts to require registration (so having posted anonymously they have to register to read it, or pay $1 or somesuch)Kristen
My problem with that is that we seem to agree that some (I hope not many, but maybe many) of the answers to these posts don't ever get read by the OP. Making them register means even less of them ultimately read the answer. If they never read the answer to their first post they never register so that they can post more. At least if they can read without registering then they may want more info about the question and so register in order to post in the original thread? |
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AndrewMurphy
Master Smack Fu Yak Hacker
2916 Posts |
Posted - 2006-11-08 : 13:35:59
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| If it was obvious homework./...I'd vote for the moderators to just delete them or substitute a "we do not do homework" message....maybe an automated reply....from a service parsing messages for 'staff, student, video store, etc!!! |
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SwePeso
Patron Saint of Lost Yaks
30421 Posts |
Posted - 2006-11-08 : 13:57:48
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| Until registered properly, they get standard bot answer "Do it in front-end!" answer?Peter LarssonHelsingborg, Sweden |
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spirit1
Cybernetic Yak Master
11752 Posts |
Posted - 2006-11-08 : 14:03:17
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| "Do it in front-end!" by Maddy (TM)that's what it should say Go with the flow & have fun! Else fight the flow blog thingie: http://weblogs.sqlteam.com/mladenp |
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Kristen
Test
22859 Posts |
Posted - 2006-11-08 : 17:05:50
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| "some (I hope not many, but maybe many) of the answers to these posts don't ever get read by the OP"We don't know that, do we?Presumably if they get an Email "You question has been answered, click here to read it", that Email-link could be tagged so that the click-thru's could be analysed.Maybe SQLTeam doesn't need the carrot of "unregistered question-asking" anymore, and AskSQLTeam could be ditched in favour of register-and-ask-a-question-for-free?Kristen |
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robvolk
Most Valuable Yak
15732 Posts |
Posted - 2006-11-09 : 00:08:13
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Good stuff! Glad that so many of you replied. A couple of things to add:quote:
Not sure about the "Homework" forum title - bit unkind to people who are genuine, but get mistaken. But something "pithy" that implies free-loader would do me
What's in a name? Well, I like the pithy freeloader idea, but I think it would put people off more than Homework would, not that I mind either way. I'd prefer to call this spade a spade: 95% of the stuff in there will come from ASK SQL Team/Super Twit anyway, the name is more benefit to those who would read and answer. If you dread Ask SQL Team and its ilk, you'll stay away.quote:
All this assumes that people would actually post questions to a Homework forum - not likely...How about just having an Ask SQL Team forum where all the anonymosu posts go. That way serious posters will give it lower priority and newbs will be more inclined to register.
Exactly my point on every count. The only difference is a manual herding of homework and test questions.quote:
I think it would be reasonable to get the user to Register for the benefit. No easy way to do that, of course, but providing answers along the approach of "We can answer your question if you provide us with A, B and C" will need the user to register to continue the thread
Nice idea, but I just can't see it actually working. Provide A, B, and C? The first item in the Ask SQL Team page is "We only answer Microsoft SQL Server" and people STILL post things like "PLEASE WRITE ME SQL THAT WORKS IN ORACLE, DB2, MYSQL AND ACCESS". There's a special kind of lost cause that even St. Jude won't patronize, and I think that would fit.quote:
I presume you have to put in an EMail address to place an AskSQLTem question - and they get an Email when its answered?
Yes and I-don't-know-but-I-doubt-it. I have to check but I think the email gets stripped when it's posted into the Snitz tables. You'd have to create a user account to get Snitz to email, or write custom code for it.quote:
Or maybe the "Homework" forum could be Registered Members only - so they have to register to read the answer?
Might as well remove Ask SQL Team like Lumbago suggested. They'll either register and post normally or go somewhere else.quote:
Or the "Homework" forum costs $1 to join or is free to anyone with more than X posts - so regulars can answer if they choose and money is raised for the annual SQL Team piss-up(and you'll be able to hire a private jet to fly me over to The Big Apple for it
Love the idea, can't see it working. And the annual SQL Team piss-up is called the PASS Summit, it's in Seattle next week, and your ticket costs the same as everyone else's. quote:
Assuming you get the AskSQLTeam questions out of the DB, and their Email address is available to you, maybe you could put a strap-line on the bottom with links to "other questions recently asked by this poster" so folk answering can check the content of previous posts
This is a good idea IMHO, but will need some coding, it's not something Snitz will do easily.quote:
I never did my own homework, I certainaly don't want to do someone else's...<rant>Effin freeloaders! I don't think it's really helping them in the long run anyway.</rant>
Couldn't. Agree. More. But what I'm hoping this new forum will accomplish is:1. Clearly identify what type of posts are in it2. Provide some relief from the Ask SQL Team dumping ground3. Give Peso and others like him a chance to help4. Spread some SQL Team goodwill5. Make it easy for those who can't be arsed to skip over itquote:
My problem with that is that we seem to agree that some (I hope not many, but maybe many) of the answers to these posts don't ever get read by the OP. Making them register means even less of them ultimately read the answer. If they never read the answer to their first post they never register so that they can post more. At least if they can read without registering then they may want more info about the question and so register in order to post in the original thread?
Couldn't. Agree. More: Part. 2.quote:
If it was obvious homework./...I'd vote for the moderators to just delete them or substitute a "we do not do homework" message
As fun as this was in the beginning, it's really lost it's appeal. And I can clearly remember the first time someone took that extra minute to help me out with SQL Server, I don't think I'd be on this site without that help. Every once in a while I like to think I can give someone that kind of boost.quote:
maybe an automated reply....from a service parsing messages for 'staff, student, video store, etc
Ooooohhhh, I sense a reader challenge. quote:
"these posts don't ever get read by the OP" We don't know that, do we?
We don't really know if Jimmy Hoffa is dead either, but no one's rooting for him.quote:
Presumably if they get an Email "You question has been answered, click here to read it", that Email-link could be tagged so that the click-thru's could be analysed.
Another good idea, needs programming I don't quite have the skill for...or time.One thing I saw on another Snitz forum was an anonymous login, so you could post to the forums without having to register. I don't think it could subscribe or otherwise be notified by email though. This doesn't seem an improvement over Ask SQL Team to me. Thoughts?I just had a notion about linking an Ask SQL Team item to a thread, instead of converting it into one. That would keep the email address and the anonymous posting. Programming question, must consult graz. (must go to sleep soon) More Thoughts?I'd still like to hear some thought on what we would and would not allow if we had the forum. I still think cert questions and brain dump requests are out, anything else?Thanks again for your opinions, keep 'em coming! I'll see if I can bend graz's ear about it next week while we're out getting drunk, stupid, and infected attending PASS. |
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Lumbago
Norsk Yak Master
3271 Posts |
Posted - 2006-11-09 : 02:58:02
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quote:
maybe an automated reply....from a service parsing messages for 'staff, student, video store, etc
Maybe we should give "benjo" a business proposal?? -> http://www.sqlteam.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=74562Graz said some time ago that he wasn't too keen on doing mod's on the forum itself, as it will make updating harder when snitz have some new releases and I understand that completely. But I do feel that the forum would be better if the AskSQLTeam-feature was handled better...I favor the idee of having them all go in to the same (new) forum and people can answer them if they like. I at least feel that they are "polluting" the other forums and think that putting them all in the same forum would solve this problem smoothly. The homework issue is a little bit more tricky as some people doing homework actually want to learn while others want somebody to do it for them. It's always hard to tell the difference, but I'd prefer doing the occasional freeloaders homework if it means that I'll help out a genuinely interested guy also...--Lumbago"Real programmers don't document, if it was hard to write it should be hard to understand" |
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elwoos
Master Smack Fu Yak Hacker
2052 Posts |
Posted - 2006-11-09 : 03:34:58
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| How feasible would it be to have a forum that all your posts automatically went into if you had less than say 5 posts?steve-----------Don't worry head. The computer will do all the thinking from now on. |
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RFC - Homework Forum?