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DonAtWork
Master Smack Fu Yak Hacker
2167 Posts |
 Posted - 2007-02-06 : 08:40:33
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http://www.sqlteam.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=78630Wow. Who pooped in your Wheaties* Peter? Your replies still have awesome coding answers, but have a really harsh edge to the commentary. Have the unwashed masses finally exhausted your patience?  * Wheaties is ©Copyright 2007 General Mills, Inc. All Rights Reserved.[Signature]For fast help, follow this link:http://weblogs.sqlteam.com/brettk/archive/2005/05/25.aspxLearn SQLhttp://www.sql-tutorial.net/ http://www.firstsql.com/tutor.htm http://www.w3schools.com/sql/default.asp |
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khtan
In (Som, Ni, Yak)
17689 Posts |
Posted - 2007-02-06 : 08:58:54
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Oh dear there goes The Saint  Oh, when the saint, oh, when the saint . . .
KH |
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SwePeso
Patron Saint of Lost Yaks
30421 Posts |
Posted - 2007-02-06 : 10:43:09
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| I still find it unbelievable that new people to SQL does not even bother to look at the help file!Why do they bother to take the time to post a request for help and enter contact information to retrieve notifications?All this take longer time to do a search for example "date time conversion" in Books Online!Some beginners have tried, it can be seen on their efforts. Kudos to those.But most of them are just too lazy and want everything on a silver platter. These are mostly the same people who don't even bother to test/try the suggestions they get from all of us.To this day I have found it in my "duties" to inform freeloaders that they should try first with the help of Books Online (by far the best source for information about T-SQL language) and maybe post what they have come up with this far. No one has even taken this suggestion and the response is "I got it somewhere else" or "I fixed it.".Amazing, just by asking what they have done this far...If they do not have a basic understanding of the T-SQL language to begin with, how are they ever supposed to understand what we suggest?Peter LarssonHelsingborg, Sweden |
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eyechart
Master Smack Fu Yak Hacker
3575 Posts |
Posted - 2007-02-06 : 10:51:01
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| I've had to take a break from answering noobs questions for about the last 6 months because of this. It gets quite frustrating actually, so I can understand where peter is coming from.-ec |
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graz
Chief SQLTeam Crack Dealer
4149 Posts |
Posted - 2007-02-06 : 11:04:57
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| Peso, I second your thoughts on people that don't learn for themselves. That drives me absolutely nuts! I used to answer posts "When you read Books Online on this subject which part wasn't clear?" It never did seem to make a difference though. People would continually ask something like "What is the syntax of the DATEPART function". It drives me absolutely batty!Now I get a perverse joy from reading these posts and realizing these people have jobs. And they are writing horrible systems. And since I'm a consultant that cleans up SQL Server messes it's all more work for me. MMMMWWWWWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAH! Just one more step on my nefarious plan for world domination!The people that don't know and know they don't know and are trying to learn I don't mind. The people that think they are entitled to an answer chap my hide! Oh well. I just thought I'd join you on that soapbox.-Bill===============================================Creating tomorrow's legacy systems today.One crisis at a time. |
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Kristen
Test
22859 Posts |
Posted - 2007-02-06 : 11:06:51
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| "Why do they bother to take the time to post a request for help and enter contact information to retrieve notifications?All this take longer time to do a search for example "date time conversion" in Books Online!"BoL is pretty dry. I think it can be hard for a Noobie to get useful information from it ... you need quite a lot of "general SQL knowledge" before you get the feel of things enough to use the help.But that said: Freeloaders can buzz off as far as I'm concerned!Kristen |
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jhermiz
3564 Posts |
Posted - 2007-02-06 : 13:04:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Peso
I still find it unbelievable that new people to SQL does not even bother to look at the help file!Why do they bother to take the time to post a request for help and enter contact information to retrieve notifications?All this take longer time to do a search for example "date time conversion" in Books Online!Some beginners have tried, it can be seen on their efforts. Kudos to those.But most of them are just too lazy and want everything on a silver platter. These are mostly the same people who don't even bother to test/try the suggestions they get from all of us.To this day I have found it in my "duties" to inform freeloaders that they should try first with the help of Books Online (by far the best source for information about T-SQL language) and maybe post what they have come up with this far. No one has even taken this suggestion and the response is "I got it somewhere else" or "I fixed it.".Amazing, just by asking what they have done this far...If they do not have a basic understanding of the T-SQL language to begin with, how are they ever supposed to understand what we suggest?Peter LarssonHelsingborg, Sweden
Its all grand you feel this way peter, but if it pisses you off so much then ignore it and stop answering it?I dont get why you create all these posts about how *stupid* all these people are and how they can't learn and all your great suggestions are never taken. If that is the case only post when you feel you are given enough information on the topic and you think the person is trying.Creating posts like "Twit list" or what not only hurts the site. You have to remember at the end of the day SQLTeam is a public forum, and registering doesn't require you to be a residential expert in SQL. BTW, SQL Team is run because of everyone not just a single person, the advertising, the articles, the information is all there because people click / read / and exist to make these things happen.So rather than post about how you are so sick and tired of this and that, how about just ignoring what pisses you off ?
Keeping the web experience alive -- [url]http://www.web-impulse.com[/url]RS Blog -- [url]http://weblogs.sqlteam.com/jhermiz[/url] |
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eyechart
Master Smack Fu Yak Hacker
3575 Posts |
Posted - 2007-02-06 : 13:18:45
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quote:
Originally posted by jhermizIts all grand you feel this way peter, but if it pisses you off so much then ignore it and stop answering it?I dont get why you create all these posts about how *stupid* all these people are and how they can't learn and all your great suggestions are never taken. If that is the case only post when you feel you are given enough information on the topic and you think the person is trying.Creating posts like "Twit list" or what not only hurts the site. You have to remember at the end of the day SQLTeam is a public forum, and registering doesn't require you to be a residential expert in SQL. BTW, SQL Team is run because of everyone not just a single person, the advertising, the articles, the information is all there because people click / read / and exist to make these things happen.So rather than post about how you are so sick and tired of this and that, how about just ignoring what pisses you off ?
why so much anger? I don't think peter was out of line at all in what he said - he is 100% accurate in his assessment of many of the beginners who post here.-ec |
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nr
SQLTeam MVY
12543 Posts |
Posted - 2007-02-06 : 13:19:20
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imho the site should be to help people develop. If that means telling them they aer being stupid then that's fine - it's something they need to get used to.Not everyone can be as polite and understanding of lesser being as me, but then no onemost people don't have as much experience of it :).==========================================Cursors are useful if you don't know sql.DTS can be used in a similar way.Beer is not cold and it isn't fizzy. |
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X002548
Not Just a Number
15586 Posts |
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jhermiz
3564 Posts |
Posted - 2007-02-06 : 13:35:30
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quote:
Originally posted by eyechart
quote:
Originally posted by jhermizIts all grand you feel this way peter, but if it pisses you off so much then ignore it and stop answering it?I dont get why you create all these posts about how *stupid* all these people are and how they can't learn and all your great suggestions are never taken. If that is the case only post when you feel you are given enough information on the topic and you think the person is trying.Creating posts like "Twit list" or what not only hurts the site. You have to remember at the end of the day SQLTeam is a public forum, and registering doesn't require you to be a residential expert in SQL. BTW, SQL Team is run because of everyone not just a single person, the advertising, the articles, the information is all there because people click / read / and exist to make these things happen.So rather than post about how you are so sick and tired of this and that, how about just ignoring what pisses you off ?
why so much anger? I don't think peter was out of line at all in what he said - he is 100% accurate in his assessment of many of the beginners who post here.-ec
Sorry didn't mean it in an anger kind of way. I think peter's help is great...but instead of him giving them answers just ignore em rather than give them the answer without a thank you.We cant change the way people post questions on here or any forum for that matter. And I think anyone posting a question and then seeing their name on a twit list wouldn't really like that.It might teach that person a lesson to actually open the book and read and learn from it as well.
Keeping the web experience alive -- [url]http://www.web-impulse.com[/url]RS Blog -- [url]http://weblogs.sqlteam.com/jhermiz[/url] |
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SwePeso
Patron Saint of Lost Yaks
30421 Posts |
Posted - 2007-02-06 : 13:43:24
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| Believe my I will.Until today I were under the assumption that people asking for help here at SQLTeam actually wanted to be helped and extend their skills, and not only be freeloaders.Many of these people are struggling so hard with their current problem, and also with their understanding of set-based thinking. I get about 3-4 emails per day from registered people here at SQLTeam begging for help, and I tell them all to first try Books Online when I see that there is only some syntax error in their own solution.The best way to get these people a better start with their careers is to make them understand which tools they posess, ie the functions and methods/keywords included in SQL Server 2000/2005. The best source for information about these tools are Books Online. There are situations where even I do not longer remember a function I have used once, months ago.But I have the decency to at least try searching first. It is so very easy to type in "the area of interest" and have a go from there. At least spend two or three minutes searching before posting my problem.And when I post, I at least write what I have tried, what I think is lacking and suggestion how to improve the existing solution.Understanding T-SQL is a process that takes time. What purpose does it do to someone, to only give them a correct answer, when you also notice that they doesn't really care?The beginners I respect most are those who acknowledge they have a problem with their understanding but "are willing to learn".Those I have least respect for are those who1) does not care to read the suggestions/reponses made specific to them (they do not respect that someone else have spent minutes or longer trying to solve their problem)2) do not respect the person making a suggestion3) ignores the suggestions and still struggling fixing the problem "their old way"Having said this, I hope you noticed this almost only apply to "syntax errors" or simple typos.Algorithms, however, is complete other thing!No book can ever learn you how to solve a specific problem related to the poster's company business rules. I understand those problems and try to help out as much as I can, depending on how much information is provided in the original posting.I have never claimed to be an expert on T-SQL. I can only help out those who currently knows less than me in some areas of T-SQL or algorithms. But when I help out, I think I deserve some respect from the original poster, not only for taking time to solve their problem, but also trying to teach them something new and widen their knowledge of set-based thinking.To conclude this message, I would like to say that I believe I have an obligation to extend and develop the poster's skills when they search for knowledge here at SQLTeam, whenever I can.Peter LarssonHelsingborg, Sweden |
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X002548
Not Just a Number
15586 Posts |
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graz
Chief SQLTeam Crack Dealer
4149 Posts |
Posted - 2007-02-06 : 14:56:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Peso
I get about 3-4 emails per day from registered people here at SQLTeam begging for help, and I tell them all to first try Books Online when I see that there is only some syntax error in their own solution.
I get quite a bit of this too. My standard policy is not to help them via email. I have a standard polite response that I send that says I only help people in the forums. If I help someone via email then I help one person. If I help someone on the forums then I help them and everyone else that reads that solution.Have you thought about updating your profile to ask people not to send you email with SQL Server questions? You can also update your profile so that no one can send you email.Is this also a problem with other people that post a lot? Do you get people sending you email through the site?===============================================Creating tomorrow's legacy systems today.One crisis at a time. |
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jhermiz
3564 Posts |
Posted - 2007-02-06 : 15:04:13
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quote:
Originally posted by graz
quote:
Originally posted by Peso
I get about 3-4 emails per day from registered people here at SQLTeam begging for help, and I tell them all to first try Books Online when I see that there is only some syntax error in their own solution.
I get quite a bit of this too. My standard policy is not to help them via email. I have a standard polite response that I send that says I only help people in the forums. If I help someone via email then I help one person. If I help someone on the forums then I help them and everyone else that reads that solution.Have you thought about updating your profile to ask people not to send you email with SQL Server questions? You can also update your profile so that no one can send you email.Is this also a problem with other people that post a lot? Do you get people sending you email through the site?===============================================Creating tomorrow's legacy systems today.One crisis at a time.
Used to get a lot for Reporting Services stuff....but its stopped. Its kind of nice sometimes cause you meet people in different fields. I actually helped someone from TMobile on an RS implementation and the guy was able to send me some promo codes for their products.Now I get too many of these:Hi,Viragra 1,80Ciralis 3,00Lervitra 3,35http://deductiv.printeryml-comReplace "-" with "." in the above link--When he reached Dumbledore, he shook hands with both of his own.Dear old Hogwarts, he said, looking up at the castle and smiling; his teeth were rather yellow, and Harry noticed that his smile did not
Keeping the web experience alive -- [url]http://www.web-impulse.com[/url]RS Blog -- [url]http://weblogs.sqlteam.com/jhermiz[/url] |
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Kristen
Test
22859 Posts |
Posted - 2007-02-06 : 16:39:28
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| "Its all grand you feel this way peter, but if it pisses you off so much then ignore it and stop answering it?"I'm with you Jon. I'm not bothered one way or the other, but I read Peter's posts [where someone is clearly being either lazy of very ignorant] and often find Peter's responses condescending.And I think that when I first arrived here I was renounced for being very polite - but I doubt that anyone would pass that opinion of me now ..."I get about 3-4 emails per day from registered people here at SQLTeam begging for help ..."I never answer those (I say "Please Ask on SQL Team"). I've got better things to do with my time than answer directly-requested questions when there are loads of people here who could provide a very competent answer, and probably more quickly. And who's to say, if they ONLY get my answer, directly, that it will be competent?!!"I get quite a bit of this too. My standard policy is not to help them via email. I have a standard polite response that I send that says I only help people in the forums. If I help someone via email then I help one person. If I help someone on the forums then I help them and everyone else that reads that solution."Graz rocks!"Is this also a problem with other people that post a lot? Do you get people sending you email through the site?"I get one or two a month."Used to get a lot for Reporting Services stuff....but its stopped"Yeah, well Jon you were ground-breaking on R.S. for a long time ... it still beggars belief, to me, that people think that asking direct questions will get them a better service. But then they don't know how to open BoL either ...... or chat up a girl .... (no names, no pack-drill!)"Understanding T-SQL is a process that takes time. What purpose does it do to someone, to only give them a correct answer, when you also notice that they doesn't really care?"Very true ..."Those I have least respect for are those who ..."You listed valid points, but I would commend Jon's suggestion to you - move on! Answering does no good (especially given that your Posting Rate is beyond reproach!). If it moves you to an "angry" (for want of a better word) response then I think that does this site no good."Viragra 1,80"Reminds me of the Letter, from a reader, in New Scientist - a medium-weight, respected, scientific rag, following some weeks of correspondence about the Evils of SPAM, where the letter's author said something to the effect "I don't know why everyone complains about SPAM, I have had 26,423 Emails offering me Viagra (etc.) and I have replied to all of them; and now my penis is 7.6M long" ..."Creating posts like "Twit list" or what not only hurts the site ..."I imagine that very few people, if any, who appear in the Twit List actually see it - they can't read BoL after all. But that is not intended to excuse it either. As the originator I'm rather humbled by the number of follow-up posts, and the number of Reads (given the 407 posts it equates to about 30 reads per post; that's probably not much more than the "regulars" in here ...) Either way, I was looking for a way to have a means of Ignoring posts from certain repeat-cretins - which is topical to this thread along the lines of "I would like a means of ignoring posts from people who, in my personal opinion, "Don't Get It" and waste the little time I have available for putting something back to the community"Some time ago I proposed an invitation-only forum so that knowledge and opinions about repeat-cretins (and a bunch of other stuff) could be shared - without such views becoming public-facing and possibly damaging the respectability of SQLTeam; there is something to be said for the fact that this conversation CAN be held in public, of course, and the balanced view which can be gleaned from the various opinions of the posters who reply.We had an advisory restricted 50mph speed limit in the UK during the last oil crisis (back in the '70's I suppose??). It was very well adhered to. So the government made it compulsory, and immediately it was ignored! ...Kristen |
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khtan
In (Som, Ni, Yak)
17689 Posts |
Posted - 2007-02-06 : 20:51:33
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quote:
We had an advisory restricted 50mph speed limit in the UK during the last oil crisis (back in the '70's I suppose??). It was very well adhered to. So the government made it compulsory, and immediately it was ignored! ...
So are we imposing a 50 ppd (posts / day) limit here also ?
KH |
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Michael Valentine Jones
Yak DBA Kernel (pronounced Colonel)
7020 Posts |
Posted - 2007-02-06 : 23:58:55
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| I have sometimes been short with people, especially when they are really irritating and stupid.However, I usually just don't reply to irritating posts at all. Not because I'm trying to be nice, but, in the words of Rhett Butler, "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn."I ducked out of this thread after two posts:http://www.sqlteam.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=78605That’s the great thing about answering questions here. There's no project deadline or pressure to get it done, no penalty for not getting it done, and you don't have to work with stupid, lazy people unless you want to.CODO ERGO SUM |
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jezemine
Master Smack Fu Yak Hacker
2886 Posts |
Posted - 2007-02-07 : 02:30:53
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here's why there aren't more questions from thoughtful, intelligent people: it's because those people look for the answer in BOL or google, and find it, so they never need to post. A great many of the questions here can be answered by a google search.So after those people weed themselves out, most of what's left are the deadbeats that can't be bothered to research their question before they ask it.
www.elsasoft.org |
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Kristen
Test
22859 Posts |
Posted - 2007-02-07 : 03:53:16
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| "So are we imposing a 50 ppd (posts / day) limit here also ?"Its voluntary ...... only a couple of people transgressing at the moment ... Kristen |
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Merkin
Funky Drop Bear Fearing SQL Dude!
4970 Posts |
Posted - 2007-02-07 : 04:49:39
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quote:
Originally posted by jhermizhow about just ignoring what pisses you off ?
The irony is delicious Jon  Damian"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." - Emerson |
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When saints go bad