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Lumbago
Norsk Yak Master
3271 Posts |
 Posted - 2009-05-12 : 04:53:22
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| Please...I need your sympathy. I REALLY need your sympathy!!! I just found out that the cursor-infested eav-modeled system I'm responsible for and that I have been crying about for 6 months (http://www.sqlteam.com/FORUMS/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=118113) that ALL the 800+ functional tables in the database are heap tables with no clustered index. There are plenty of indexes, just no clustered ones. I probably should've found out this before but it just didn't occur to me that anyone would be THAT stupid...- Lumbago |
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spirit1
Cybernetic Yak Master
11752 Posts |
Posted - 2009-05-12 : 04:58:00
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there, there... i'm sure there's a valid, serious and highly prfessional reason for this  ___________________________________________________________________________Causing trouble since 1980Blog: http://weblogs.sqlteam.com/mladenpSpeed up SSMS development: www.ssmstoolspack.com <- version 1.5 out! |
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Lumbago
Norsk Yak Master
3271 Posts |
Posted - 2009-05-12 : 06:49:11
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| I've thought a little about it and I wonder: is this really something I should have noticed before as a dba? This is a 3rd party system we've been using on a small scale up until about a month ago and now it's our primary CRM system for all our customers. Is this something you guys check when you start administering a new system...? Maybe I should've posted in the admin forum instead...- Lumbago |
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robvolk
Most Valuable Yak
15732 Posts |
Posted - 2009-05-12 : 06:49:56
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You obviously don't understand enterprise-level n-tier heap structures, these will map perfectly to your .Net classes.  |
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Lumbago
Norsk Yak Master
3271 Posts |
Posted - 2009-05-12 : 07:04:41
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quote:
You obviously don't understand enterprise-level n-tier heap structures, these will map perfectly to your .Net classes.
Hey whitefang; if you ever need I job I know the perfect place for you! They do mostly java but you can just write a custom .net-to-java enterprise wrapper and you're all set - Lumbago |
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RickD
Slow But Sure Yak Herding Master
3608 Posts |
Posted - 2009-05-12 : 09:02:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Lumbago
quote:
You obviously don't understand enterprise-level n-tier heap structures, these will map perfectly to your .Net classes.
Hey whitefang; if you ever need I job I know the perfect place for you! They do mostly java but you can just write a custom .net-to-java enterprise wrapper and you're all set - Lumbago
Is there an Access back end though? I don't think he could deal with anything more complex. |
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SwePeso
Patron Saint of Lost Yaks
30421 Posts |
Posted - 2009-05-12 : 09:09:40
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Lumbago, be a man and bite the bullet!  Seriously, have your project leader contact the vendor and ask for a valid reason there are no clustered indexes.Inform you PL about the pros and cons about having CI.
E 12°55'05.63"N 56°04'39.26" |
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blindman
Master Smack Fu Yak Hacker
2365 Posts |
Posted - 2009-05-12 : 09:22:24
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quote:
Originally posted by robvolk
You obviously don't understand enterprise-level n-tier heap structures, these will map perfectly to your .Net classes.
Zing!________________________________________________If it is not practically useful, then it is practically useless.________________________________________________ |
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Michael Valentine Jones
Yak DBA Kernel (pronounced Colonel)
7020 Posts |
Posted - 2009-05-12 : 10:43:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Lumbago
I've thought a little about it and I wonder: is this really something I should have noticed before as a dba? This is a 3rd party system we've been using on a small scale up until about a month ago and now it's our primary CRM system for all our customers. Is this something you guys check when you start administering a new system...? Maybe I should've posted in the admin forum instead...- Lumbago
Don't kick yourself for not noticing this. Just consider that you might not know yet about much worse things that are wrong with the system.  Of the 50 or so vendor developed systems that I have looked at, I have seen exactly one that appeared to be designed by someone who actually understood logical and physical database design.I would say that the majority of the vendor designed systems fail to implement some or all of primary keys, clustered indexes, foreign key constraints, normalized tables, or any of the basic things you would expect in a well designed application. I don’t even want to talk about stored procedures with error checking and error messages. We have one vendor application that makes extensive use of server side cursors so that with even small number of users I see over 1,000 batch requests per second.I would say that over all, vendor designed systems are no better or worse that ones developed by in-house developers or consultants. One consultant recently told me that he didn’t implement primary keys because they were only of theoretical interest with no value in the real world. I just hope that the people designing buildings, bridges, and the cars we drive have more sense.CODO ERGO SUM |
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RickD
Slow But Sure Yak Herding Master
3608 Posts |
Posted - 2009-05-12 : 11:41:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Valentine Jones [...]One consultant recently told me that he didn’t implement primary keys because they were only of theoretical interest with no value in the real world. [...]
Sorry, but you just made my day.. |
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robvolk
Most Valuable Yak
15732 Posts |
Posted - 2009-05-12 : 13:32:35
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| We need a poll for "biggest, most eternal feud of all time":- Hatfield vs McCoy- Capitalism vs Socialism- Oracle vs SQL Server- Developers vs DBAs <-- this is where my money isAny others? |
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webfred
Master Smack Fu Yak Hacker
8781 Posts |
Posted - 2009-05-12 : 13:52:45
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quote:
Originally posted by robvolk
We need a poll for "biggest, most eternal feud of all time":- Hatfield vs McCoy- Capitalism vs Socialism- Oracle vs SQL Server- Developers vs DBAs <-- this is where my money isAny others?
enterprise-level n-tier heap structures vs CI
No, you're never too old to Yak'n'Roll if you're too young to die. |
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DonAtWork
Master Smack Fu Yak Hacker
2167 Posts |
Posted - 2009-05-12 : 14:01:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Valentine Jones [...] One consultant recently told me that he didn’t implement primary keys because they were only of theoretical interest with no value in the real world. [...]
Its ok to say whitefang. Really.[Signature]For fast help, follow this link:http://weblogs.sqlteam.com/brettk/archive/2005/05/25.aspxLearn SQL or How to sell Used CarsFor ultra basic questions, follow these links.http://www.sql-tutorial.net/ http://www.firstsql.com/tutor.htm http://www.w3schools.com/sql/default.asp |
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Michael Valentine Jones
Yak DBA Kernel (pronounced Colonel)
7020 Posts |
Posted - 2009-05-12 : 14:48:07
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quote:
Originally posted by RickD
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Valentine Jones [...]One consultant recently told me that he didn’t implement primary keys because they were only of theoretical interest with no value in the real world. [...]
Sorry, but you just made my day..
He also explained that he stored dates in CHAR(8) columns (YYYYMMDD) in a transaction table because that's the way he needed them on a report.At least he had an overbearing and arrogant attitude to complement his complete lack of knowledge of database design.CODO ERGO SUM |
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robvolk
Most Valuable Yak
15732 Posts |
Posted - 2009-05-12 : 14:57:28
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| So he's been promoted to management then? Or went over to sales? |
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SwePeso
Patron Saint of Lost Yaks
30421 Posts |
Posted - 2009-05-12 : 15:05:04
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Or following the "those who can't, teach..." dogma?
E 12°55'05.63"N 56°04'39.26" |
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GilaMonster
Master Smack Fu Yak Hacker
4507 Posts |
Posted - 2009-05-12 : 15:22:06
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| <offers a shoulder>It could be worse. It could be a denormalised design with no primary keys, no foreign keys, and thousands of 'temporary' tables that were never dropped.--Gail ShawSQL Server MVP |
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Lumbago
Norsk Yak Master
3271 Posts |
Posted - 2009-05-12 : 15:35:08
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| It can always get worse. But I guess you know you're in for some good times when updating 500 000 rows with some data takes 19 hours and the vendor says it's due to a disk problem.- Lumbago |
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Michael Valentine Jones
Yak DBA Kernel (pronounced Colonel)
7020 Posts |
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Lumbago
Norsk Yak Master
3271 Posts |
Posted - 2009-05-12 : 16:16:59
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| That would be something - Lumbago |
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GilaMonster
Master Smack Fu Yak Hacker
4507 Posts |
Posted - 2009-05-13 : 00:37:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Lumbago
But I guess you know you're in for some good times when updating 500 000 rows with some data takes 19 hours and the vendor says it's due to a disk problem.
Head->deskThe system with permanent 'temp' tables was real. I took a look onday, because some operations were slow, and I couldn't figure why.I found over 20 000 table, all supposedly dropped after they were finished with. Obviously someone never heard of #Temp tables--Gail ShawSQL Server MVP |
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